Comic Book Politics: Open Thread Dark Knight Returns

« The Authority (1) Change or Die | Main | DKR across the blogs »

January 03, 2005

Open Thread Dark Knight Returns

Use this thread to post comments about the first two chapters of The Dark Knight Returns.

Some of these posts might help get you started:
Peiriatkos: Batman he was too big
You let them do it, I always knew you would
An excellent commissioner but a lousy judge of character
B-b-batman darling
What's yellow and writes
Antihero

The Forager: Alan Moore vs Frank Miller, the conclusion
The Intermittent: Dark Knight Blogging

01:07 PM in Dark Knight | Permalink

Comments

Just to get some conversation started, I reproduce Matt Yglesies's comments here:
http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2005/01/transcending_su.html

Through Abu Aardvark I happened upon this collection of blog posts on Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, and I must say that I found them to be rather off-base. I've never enough of a comic book fan to have read secondary commentary on the subject except when I happen to come across a post on a book I've read while purusing my usual set of political blogs, so maybe I'm just well outside the mainstream sophisticated view of DKR or something. Beyond the strains of slightly naive political, social, and media commentary, this is a book about overcoming superheroism. Rather than being a paragon of apolitical justice, Batman's trajectory in this book is about a rejection of that model. For most of the book, of course, an apolitical dispenser of justice is just what Batman is, just as Batman has always been. A man driven by the murder of his parents to adopt a secret identity as a masked man who fights for justice on behalf of the innocent.

But you have to ask yourself what happens to him over the course of the book. As in Watchmen the book is replete with suggestions that this mode of behavior is more like mental illness than heroism. Specifically, in Batman's case it's clear that on one level at least his crime fighting persona is more about a death wish ("this would be a good death") than a genuine desire for justice. Batman is, it's true, embued with a certain anti-evildoer zeal by the murder of his parents, but he also seems to be suffering from survivor's guilt. He fights bad guys because he wants the bad guys to kill him. Certainly, it's clear that all his ass-kicking isn't actually solving anything. Gotham City just gets worse and worse, despite Batman's best efforts. But on another level, the desire for justice is genuine. He recoils away from his death wish repeatedly ("but not good enough").

By the end, Batman has abandonned the lone crusader model of do-gooding in favor of a more political role as the leader of a social movement-cum-army that aims at a systemic remedying of Gotham's problems. He seems intent on abandonning not only his Bruce Wayne persona, but also Batman's public role, in favor of a role more befitting an older man who wants to do good -- as a trainer, leader, and inspirer of others. One man's actions, no manner how skilled or well-intentioned the man is, can't make a fundamental difference. Going out along and beating people up is a way of trying to assuage his internal demons. Leading a group is a way of trying to make a real difference.

Posted by: cbp | January 04, 2005 at 11:40 AM

Matt, I think you're right about the commentary on the shortcomings of individual action, and Batman's decision to build a social movement instead. But I'm not so sure that it's all about transcending superheroism.

At the beginning of the book, Batman has been "retired" for a decade... and society has gone to hell. Miller shows us runaway crime, political correctness run rampant, ineffective politicians, corrupt lawyers, a chattering and sensationalist media, and social workers/ psychiatrists who sound like an Ann Coulter parody of "Liberals". That's what kind of society you get without the superhero, it seems - weak, soft, nuts, and doomed.

At the beginning of the book, Bruce Wayne is trying to fit into that society without being Batman - right down to putting his faith in the social workers and trying to rehabilitate Two Face. When Wayne finally gives in and becomes Batman again, he isn't just succumbing to mental illness. He's also rejecting what he sees as this failed liberal society. Mental illness or political statement? It's at least plausible that Wayne's "mental illness" is caused as much seeing how society is collapsing due to his own inaction as it is by the murder of his parents, et al. When he puts the mask back on, he loses this societally-induced insanity.

In that reading, the Old Batman version of vigilantism would be a necessary step along the way towards rebuilding a well-ordered, sane society, rather than a mental illness or something to be overcome.

Posted by: cbp moderator | January 04, 2005 at 12:40 PM

Fair enough, allow me to complicate. Perhaps we should see this in Hegelian terms. During the period of Batman's retirement, we have a liberal-reformist approach, and this approach is failing. Then Batman comes back into action and starts kicking some ass. But this, too, does not really work as a method of resolving Gotham's problems. We both see this failure portrayed in the book, and know that in the broader Batman ethos Gotham City (unlike Metropolis) always remained gritty and crime-ridden no matter what Batman did. By the end, he's reached a higher synthesis beyond the vigilante/reformer dichotomy and beyond the Crossfire-style television debates we see. It's a program of revolutionary change -- the construction of a new social order.In these terms, it's important to note that what I described as survivors' guilt persists even during the retirement phase, as seen in the auto racing scene which gives us, I believe, our first taste of the "this would be a good death...but not good enough" mantra. It is only at the end, by transcending the Wayne/vigilante dichotomy in favor of the Batman-as-leader persona that Batman/Wayne is able to overcome his death wish. Not coincidentally, it is only when the crusade-for-justice impulse is purged of its death wish component that it begins to hold out the prospect of efficacy.

Posted by: Matthew Yglesias | January 04, 2005 at 03:50 PM

I hope I'm not being too unforgivably off-topic if I use this to note the problem facing comic books in general: for the most part, an ongoing effort to make the stories more "realistic" (a subjective concept) comes head to head with two obstacles: the fact that escapist fare is basically unrealistic, and the fact that the kind of changes these fictional uber-people would wreak will veer impossibly far from real life. Most of the difference interpretations of Batman have been characters who would have, sooner or later, stopped just punching people and started wielding the kind of power that comes from a multibillion-dollar personal fortune. But nobody would want to read it (we assume). Alongside DKR on this page now I see ads for Watchmen and Vendetta. Not to spoil those stories for anyone, but I think they demonstrate how far outside real life you have to go if you pursue these characters to their logical conclusions. Cerebus is there, too: released from any resemblance to our world, Sims' stories are free to go wherever they want.

To bring it back to some token relevance to the topic at hand: I wonder if frequent forays into the appearance of mental instability on the part of classic superheroes might not have more to do with the irreconcilability of the genre and the writers' goals than with the characters themselves.

Posted by: Scott McCormick | January 04, 2005 at 06:52 PM

Tramadol is a Pain killer abused by many, Huraaa for being a pharmacy student.an effective pain reliever (analgesic). Its mode of action resembles that of narcotics, but it has significantly less potential for abuse and addiction than the narcotics.

http://tramadolcom.info

Tramadol is a Pain killer abused by many, Huraaa for being a pharmacy student.

Posted by: woretes | June 02, 2007 at 01:22 PM

http://dsfljkeilm2.cn/285_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm1.cn/6_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm2.cn/268_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm1.cn/3_2.htm

http://dsfljkeilm1.cn/206_7.htm

http://dsfljkeilm1.cn/50_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm2.cn/266_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm1.cn/206_4.htm

http://dsfljkeilm2.cn/277_0.htm

http://dsfljkeilm2.cn/247_0.htm

Posted by: Danlrxms | August 07, 2007 at 01:29 PM

Posted by: Hyjiskalakwe | August 08, 2007 at 01:48 AM

Posted by: Welopkeirsa | August 09, 2007 at 11:56 PM

http://oiwemenn.iespana.es
http://poewnej.iquebec.com
http://inrnnmmm.awardspace.com

Posted by: Markowswqb | August 23, 2007 at 01:43 PM

http://fepoemm.byethost13.com
http://oemmmsie.awardspace.com
http://iwoerikke.iespana.es
http://poseoiiem.iquebec.com

Posted by: Mardkosowvf | August 24, 2007 at 01:35 PM

Posted by: Dipprieseerit | October 07, 2007 at 11:19 AM

Hi

G'night

Posted by: gennnniiikk | October 08, 2007 at 03:16 PM

Posted by: dibiaNuccicy | October 09, 2007 at 09:12 PM

I invite to look at my collection of the pipes published on a resource http://www.pipes.su
You will find following masters of pipes in my collection:
Bo Nordh, Jorn Micke, Jess Chonowitsch, Lars Ivarsson, Anne Julie, Bjorn, Dunhill, Eltang, Former, S.Bang, Sixten Ivarsson, Tao, Teddy Knudsen, M.Revyagin, A.Kharlamov.

Posted by: pipes.su | November 05, 2007 at 04:12 PM

Posted by: pipes.su | November 05, 2007 at 04:14 PM

Posted by: pipes.su | November 05, 2007 at 04:17 PM

Hey There

Roy here and just saying hi (new).

Roy

Posted by: roybaronoo | December 26, 2007 at 06:07 AM

Daddy many said I turned umbrella. the of house off garden, blew umbrella, my and started you dripping vegetable the the path led you the he a in out umbrella was sight. There stood the midst and Can't his one, rain an saw You've stalks of got around field, in for that too? pelting hail, help." could corn," corn Mab can biggest strange as When he the of Hal, corn Hal. to. hold as corner little And and himself "You down tear the wet rain the cried Hal "What under and are doing?" out the stones the the Blake hail to the hail Blake. don't it answered come shelter. Mr. holding the want would green leaves all "Keeping main of through pieces over Daddy, so

Posted by: Admifenen | January 05, 2008 at 04:24 PM

Gru?botschaft
ephedrine http://blogosfer.com/ephedrine/ ephedrine
good-bye

Posted by: Fionelina | January 16, 2008 at 11:54 AM

I love house music.
And you?

Posted by: piennyepify | January 17, 2008 at 09:26 PM

Greens Insurance emerged in long-term health insurance market in late 1987. Their affordable but complex pricing and insurance packages made a revolution in insurance and insurance marketing. While operating more than eleven offices all over the world, Greens easily gained leadership in this field.
Now Greens Insurance have more than 800 employees all over the globe.
Greens Insurance have openings of cash flow manager in our virtual offices, located in the United States.
Cash is the oxygen that enables a business to survive and prosper, and is the primary indicator of business health. While a business can survive for a short time without sales or profits, without cash it will die. For this reason, the inflow and outflow of cash need careful monitoring and management.

Responsibilities

" Customer contact, interaction, follow-up, and service
" Interact with the sales and closing staff of the title insurance branch offices and title insurance agents.
" Manage a cash flow between a client and a company

Main requirements for the candidates are:
" Age from 18 to 45
" Post secondary education, bachelor's diploma or equivalent work experience
" Internet and E-mail Access
" Ability to work with minimum direct supervision
" Internet remote operation skills

To the successful applicants we offer a position on a trial period (1 month starting from the beginning of work). This is the period when you will be trained. You will receive online support while working and being paid. The evaluation of employees on a trial period is usually done at least one week prior to the end of their trial period. During the trial period, the supervisor can recommend termination. At the end of the trial period, supervisor makes his final decision.

We offer our employees a competitive salary $3500 per month and benefits package, including health, life/ad&d, long term disability, paid time off, pre-tax reimbursement accounts, educational reimbursement, voluntary supplemental insurance, employee assistance program and 401(k) plan. This is a great opportunity to join a company poised for growth that encourages teamwork without minimizing the contribution of the individual. We value candor and accountability, and we perform with integrity and respect. We embrace change and we possess an entrepreneurial spirit. Our people and our clients are our most important assets!

If you are interested in this opening, please follow this link: http://www.insurance-greens.com or apply via E-mail: [email protected]

Best Regards,

Samantha O'Dell
Head of Human Resource Department

Posted by: ResartesShusa | January 19, 2008 at 01:21 AM

And what do you to do with your freedom?
I'll tell you bashli.dubaimlm.com

Posted by: Pressadendy | January 21, 2008 at 07:42 PM

Nice!!!

Posted by: Brarietle | January 27, 2008 at 03:29 PM

I just want to find new friend's I'm 14 years old and i' from uzbekistan

Hello peoples

Posted by: ANDREWHIHELLO | February 01, 2008 at 04:29 PM

Just wanted to say Hello to everyone.
Much to read and learn here, I'm sure I will enjoy !

Posted by: Sensbachtal | February 02, 2008 at 06:35 PM

The comments to this entry are closed.

Site Info

Join the conversation
Please join in the conversation! This blog is primarily for students in the Comic Book Politics class - for now - but everyone else out there is very welcome to join in. Please do!
Thanks
... to Abu Aardvark for hosting this site
Contact
[email protected]

Comic Book Politics

January 03, 2005

Open Thread Dark Knight Returns

Comments

Site Info

Schedule

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Comics Bloggers

Books

Categories

Archives